Installing a Quarq Elsa (of which the spacer resolution is a whole 'nother thread) on a Cannondale SliceRS with BB30. In the back and forth installing/re-installing the cranks to figure out spacers… I’ve removed the BB30 FSA bearing sets (i.e. both sides) a couple of times.
Now when I get the bearings seated in the frame they feel ‘gritty’ when spinning with my finger. When I tap them out, and the bearings are in my hand, they run great and smooth. But installed in the frame they don’t run smooth. This wasn’t the case when I started monkeying around, so I can’t figure out why in the frame the bearings aren’t behaving. Also, the ‘cups’ that the bearings sit in also can come out of the carbon frame… When these ‘cups’ are out of the frame, and the bearings are in the cups, the bearings run smooth.
Wonder what could be going on that bearings ‘squished’ into a cup, then a frame would not stay smooth? Any words of wisdom greatly appreciated.
Here’s a pic with the frame and no ‘cups’ no bearings…
And here is the cups and bearings prior to installation. Again, in both these states (bearings on their own, and bearings installed in the black cups) these bearings run great. But when the cup and bearings are installed in the frame, they no longer run smooth. Anyone come across this before?
(btw, just so you don’t point this out… the bearings seen on the right, already in the cup, are not fully installed or sunk into the cup yet.)
My guess would be that the races inside the bearings have been damaged by repeated installation and removal. Bearing don’t like to be loaded laterally which is what installation and removal do.
I would suggest replacing the bearings. Not a huge expense compared to the PM you are trying to install.
I found some guidance on FSA’s web site (second one down)… looks like there is a miss-alignment in the way the cups are sitting in the frame. I do have a new set of bearings, but it doesn’t seem like the bearings are at issue if they roll smooth when not pressed into the frame.
I must say the big pain in this process has been the fact that the Quarq Elsa crank has so many options (presumably to account for several different BB types), that figuring out how many spacers are required on the non drive side is requiring several installs and re-installs of the crank spindle. If the non drive crank arm had not been permanently fixed to the spindle, this would have been a very easy operation and I wouldn’t have been messing around with the bearings.
why would you be removing bearings when removing spindle?? they should stay in frameSeriously, I wasn’t trying too. Believe me. But the spindle tolerance is REALLY tight, and in the four / five attempts at trying different spacer options, and installing and removing the spindle (with a light tap, I mean light tap, with a rubber mallet) the bearings did inadvertently come out.
p.s. but anyhoo… that’s a great question, but at this point “water under the bridge” and isn’t really relevant in the phase I am in now.
My guess would be that the races inside the bearings have been damaged by repeated installation and removal. Bearing don’t like to be loaded laterally which is what installation and removal do.
I would suggest replacing the bearings. Not a huge expense compared to the PM you are trying to install.
re-install the cups and show a picture front & back if you can. I want to see if the cups are not sitting square in the frame. Do you have a PF bb removal/install tool? Extremely helpful to removing bb’s without damage.
re-install the cups and show a picture front & back if you can. I want to see if the cups are not sitting square in the frame. Do you have a PF bb removal/install tool? Extremely helpful to removing bb’s without damage.I will post a pic later today. I was worried about tightening the BB installation tool too hard, so I’ll take another look to make sure everything tight and is square. I am using the Park Tools HHP–3 for installation, and the BBT-30.3 for removal. And was removing the bearings using the Park Tools’ videos.
Just to clarify (when you are searching for tech info) you have a PF30 bottom bracket, not BB30.
In search of the gritty, how old are the bearings? These systems don’t typically hold up real well to rough weather and if they are more than a year old I’d look at replacing them, or at least pulling the seals, cleaning them out, and putting a load of fresh grease in.
I use an Elsa in a BB30 (not PF30) frame and while it was tricky to install the first time, it now goes in an out easily. A very light coat of grease over the spindle helps a lot with this. I can sympathize with you on spacers though, that has always been (one of) the major issues with non-threaded BB’s. There is no simple plug and play like with GXP.
Just to clarify (when you are searching for tech info) you have a PF30 bottom bracket, not BB30. In search of the gritty, how old are the bearings? These systems don’t typically hold up real well to rough weather and if they are more than a year old I’d look at replacing them, or at least pulling the seals, cleaning them out, and putting a load of fresh grease in. I use an Elsa in a BB30 (not PF30) frame and while it was tricky to install the first time, it now goes in an out easily. A very light coat of grease over the spindle helps a lot with this. I can sympathize with you on spacers though, that has always been (one of) the major issues with non-threaded BB’s. There is no simple plug and play like with GXP.The bike can only have between 500-1000 miles on it, and only once did I get lightly rained on. I got the bike one year ago. Again… the bearings ran perfectly smooth before I took them out, they run smooth outside the frame, but only feel rough when pressed into the frame. At issue seems to be the method of installation, and the squareness of the way they are installed. Even if I use new bearings (which I have a set of new bearings), if I use the same tools to install the new bearings, i will likely end up with the same ‘rough/gritty’ result. I am going to take my frame and new bearings to the LBS tonight, to see if they can use the professional grade BB installation tool with different results.
why would you be removing bearings when removing spindle?? they should stay in frameSeriously, I wasn’t trying too. Believe me. But the spindle tolerance is REALLY tight, and in the four / five attempts at trying different spacer options, and installing and removing the spindle (with a light tap, I mean light tap, with a rubber mallet) the bearings did inadvertently come out.
Are you using a Park Tool headset press with the BB30 drifts to press in the PF30 bearing cups? I had similar experiences with Cannondale Hollowgram SRM’s on both BB30 and PF30 cross frames in which the spindle would bind on the inner race of the bearings and then not spin more than 1 revolution. I had read about ‘freezing’ the spindle by putting it in the freezer but that did not work for me and since I refused to smack the spider of a $$$ SRM with a mallet, I decided to investigate. What I found was that installing the cups without a tool such as the Park Tool or similar could cause misalignment of the bearings but even so, when installing the crank and the spindle started to bind, any additional lateral force imposed added preload on the drive side bearing and typically displacing the non-drive side bearing again resulting in improper alignment. My solution was to polish the spindle diameter by removing the spindle from the non-drive side crank arm and using a fine grade of Emory cloth after spraying the spindle with water then spinning it with a Dewalt cordless drill. The whole process took a couple passes of about 30-45 seconds per side testing until I could slide the bearing over the finely greased spindle by hand. Once this was done, I used the Park Tool headset press with BB30 drifts to carefully press in the bearings or bearing cups then was able to insert the SRM spindle all the way through with no need of a mallet or other blunt object after which, the SRM spun much more freely than before.
Here’s the pics with the bearings installed… it is pretty much impossible to get a good angle…
I just tightened down the PF cups (i.e. using the HHP-3 without the bearing installation bushings) and then tighted down the bearings again… just to make sure… (i.e. using the HHP-3 with the bearing installation bushings), and still not smooth. Off to the LBS tonight.
There could be a number of explanations to what you experience as other users have also noted. But if we assume that the bearings were in good condition, when loaded into the frame, before you started working on them my guess is that they got damaged from installation / uninstallation. It sounds like you used the right tools but bearings can be sensitive. I note that you write that the bearing came out when you tapped the axle out. When doing this the force from each tap is being transferred from the axle to the inner race, through the balls and on to the outer race. This will in many cases damage the races.
When you hold the bearing in your hand there is no preload on the bearing (compression on the outer race from the BB shell and expansion of the inner race from the axle). When you spin the bearing like this there is space between the balls and the races and that’s why you don’t feel the damages in the races. If you try to apply preload to the bearing when you hold it in your hand you will feel it. You can do this by applying axial load. Hold the outer race with one hand and apply axial pressure on the inner race with the other while you spin it slowly. This will most likely cause the bearing to feel “gritty” also.
If my assumption is right I recommend to replace the bearings.
Other than the explanation above there can be a number of reasons. Most cases of bearings turning bad after very few miles is caused by bad tolerances in both frames and axles. Most common is the frame BB shell being out of tolerance, far from round and maybe not aligned from left to right. This will all cause accelerated bearing wear. Factors like bearing material, maintenance etc. all affect the lifetime and will make the bearing survive shorter or longer under troublesome conditions.
The PF30 system as you have where a BB30 bearing is pressed into a cup, which then goes into the frame, is supposed to reduce the bearing lifetime problems caused by bad tolerances (and reduce production cost for the frame manufactures). But it seems that many frame manufactures just saw this as a way to be even more sloppy with the tolerances.
It sounds like your BB cups fit pretty loose in the BB shell. You could consider to glue them in with a special Loctite which will still allow you to remove the cups when you want to.
Please feel free to shoot at me with any bearing related questions. You can also send me a PM if I can be of more assistance.
Case closed. THANK YOU Martin, from CeramicSpeed. And, yes, Bob, you were right all along.
Understanding the logic about the preload made me confident that it was a cartridge bearing problem, and not the installation method. After double checking the spacer setup for the Elsa’s (using the old bearings), I put the new bearings in the cups, put the cups in the frame with the HHP-3 and installed the crank. Done. Perfect. Thanks.
For those with a PF30 on a C’dale, my final setup was Drive side crank, the 12mm spacer, the black “30mm” dust cap, the BB30 cartridge bearing, then on the none drive side… the other bearings, then the other dust cap, a 6mm spacer, the adjusting nut device then the Non Drive side arm. The photo also shows the new bearings and the PF30 caps.
