Monogamy, monogamish, don't ask don't tell, polyamorous

A comment in another thread piqued my interest - the thread was about ‘meaning in life’ - and someone posted that part of his meaning in life was ‘monogamy’.

A couple of years ago I read a book (The Dawn of Sex, I think was the title) and my main take away was that monogamy was not natural.

Curious to know if others find that monogamy doesn’t ‘feel’ natural, yet (try?) to abide to it out of social pressure.

And if others have ‘given in’ to their nature and pursued non-monogamy in its various forms.

From what I’ve read, it’s sort of natural (which is why so many people are monogamous).

Women tend to naturally be monogamous. One baby every 9 months, and then time spent raising the baby gives no advantage to sleeping around.
Women want their men to be monogamous. Men having babies with other women is not good for the raising of her children.
Men want their women to be monogamous. Women having babies with other men does not help him spread his own genes.
Men struggle to balance between doing what’s best for their children and family, and wanting to sleep around.

Me, personally? I fantasize sleeping with all sorts of women, but I’ve not ever come close to even considering cheating, ever. I don’t think I could even if it was to save a life.

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From what I’ve read, it’s sort of natural (which is why so many people are monogamous).

Women tend to naturally be monogamous. One baby every 9 months, and then time spent raising the baby gives no advantage to sleeping around.
Women want their men to be monogamous. Men having babies with other women is not good for the raising of her children.
Men want their women to be monogamous. Women having babies with other men does not help him spread his own genes.
Men struggle to balance between doing what’s best for their children and family, and wanting to sleep around.

But the bolded two aren’t natural - they are societal constructs.

Look at other mammal, including all other apes. Very few are monogamous. What is “natural” is the biggest, strongest male - i.e. the one with the best DNA - mates with the largest number of women he can protect. His whole life, the meaning of his life, is to protect his family group: his mates and kids. He spends every minute of his adult life in either the pursuit of mates or the protection of those mates, be it from predators or other males.
Females have no advantage to sleep around, because they have already chosen the best mate.
Males have every advantage to having multiple mates, as it spreads their DNA the furthest.
Females take almost every aspect of raising the young, except protection. The feed, they teach, they “raise”. The males have no part, except fending off predators and other males that often kill all the old male’s offspring

10,000 years of society has changed a lot of that :wink: . That and 7,000,000,000 of us, with almost a 50:50 M:F split.

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From what I’ve read, it’s sort of natural (which is why so many people are monogamous).

Women tend to naturally be monogamous. One baby every 9 months, and then time spent raising the baby gives no advantage to sleeping around.
Women want their men to be monogamous. Men having babies with other women is not good for the raising of her children.
Men want their women to be monogamous. Women having babies with other men does not help him spread his own genes.
Men struggle to balance between doing what’s best for their children and family, and wanting to sleep around.

Me, personally? I fantasize sleeping with all sorts of women, but I’ve not ever come close to even considering cheating, ever. I don’t think I could even if it was to save a life.

If that were true, very few women would ‘cheat’, we know that’s not true. Sleeping around increases the chances of getting better genes.

Ever? What do you call your fantasies with ‘all sorts of women’? Is that not ‘considering’ cheating - even if only in your fantasies? Is that not also strong evidence that monogamy is not natural? If it were natural, you’d never fantasize about ‘other’ women.

As an aside,
I kind of recall the book pointing out that a man has different types of sperm for different functions - the sperm at the start of an ejaculate has more ‘swimmers’ while the BOP sperm are more ‘defensive’ with chemicals that prevent/slow down another man’s sperm from making its way forward - all this to say that evolutionarily speaking, our bodies (and brains and libidos) evolved to have multiple partners.

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The book to which you are referring is probably Sex at Dawn, by Christopher Ryan and Calcida Jetha. Fascinating read, and it changed my mind about several things. I tend to agree with their notion that lifelong monagamous relationships most likely are not the natural state of humankind, and the sheer volume of misery and cheating that are associated with it are probably indicative of its failure to fulfill so many people.

Not quite sure about the alternatives, though - at the very least, there’s plenty of cultural baggage to overcome. My marriage is somewhat unconventional (open, to some degree), but even in the best of circumstances, there’s an ever-present danger of misunderstandings and hurt feelings.

But the bolded two aren’t natural - they are societal constructs.

No, they are natural instincts in human women and men. (explained further below)

Look at other mammal, including all other apes. Very few are monogamous. What is “natural” is the biggest, strongest male - i.e. the one with the best DNA - mates with the largest number of women he can protect. His whole life, the meaning of his life, is to protect his family group: his mates and kids. He spends every minute of his adult life in either the pursuit of mates or the protection of those mates, be it from predators or other males.
Females have no advantage to sleep around, because they have already chosen the best mate.
Males have every advantage to having multiple mates, as it spreads their DNA the furthest.
Females take almost every aspect of raising the young, except protection. The feed, they teach, they “raise”. The males have no part, except fending off predators and other males that often kill all the old male’s offspring

One has to understand that each species of animals has their own “system” that successfully spreads their genes. Humans, for example, will behave much differently than pack or herd animals.

There are two things that must occur in order to spread DNA. A male must mate with a female to produce an offspring, and that offspring must be successful. The rearing of offspring is a MUCH more involved and much longer process for humans than in any other animal, which makes the need to pair bond into long term relationships that much more important. It doesn’t imply, necessarily, that there is NO advantage to sleeping around with multiple women, but that there is a balance/struggle between the two different methods.

Its perfectly natural for women to not want their men to sleep around, and likewise its perfectly natural for men to want to sleep around but not let the women find out about it. Its also perfectly natural for the man to focus on one family and try to keep that family in tact.

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If that were true, very few women would ‘cheat’, we know that’s not true. Sleeping around increases the chances of getting better genes.

How would sleeping around increase the chance of getting better genes? They can only have one baby at a time. If they sleep with, for example, 3 different men, how would that increase their chances?

Ever? What do you call your fantasies with ‘all sorts of women’? Is that not ‘considering’ cheating

If the question is “have you ever fantasized about sex with other women,” the answer is yes. If the question is have I ever had sex with another woman that my partner did not want me to have sex with while we were in a relationship, then no. I didn’t really think that needed to be explained.

all this to say that evolutionarily speaking, our bodies (and brains and libidos) evolved to have multiple partners.

If we evolved to have multiple partners, then why do people get angry when their spouses cheat on them? The point being that you can’t look at one aspect of biology and throw the rest of it out to draw a simple conclusion.

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For those proposing what I consider to be the over simplistic “either - or” answer with regard to monogamy, I’d like to ask you this:

Do you think that every species that is polygamous was always polygamous and always will be, and do you think that every species that is monogamous was always monogamous and always will be?

If not, then how does a species change over time? Does it just flip one day?

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You ought to read the book, which addresses many of these questions. Even if you don’t agree with the authors’ conclusions, you’ll probably find it very thought provoking.

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I might. I’ve already read 3 that address the question, though.

The Third Chimpanzee by Jarred Diamond describes humans not as polygamous, but as polygenous and, more or less, gave the description above.

I personally don’t care what anyone does with their sex life. If you like to sleep around, go for it. If you are in an open relationship, more power to you. If you are in a monogamous relationship, that’s great as well.

My only point here is that its overly simplistic do identify humans as purely polygamous based on the understanding of how bulls mate, and the fact that a lot of monogamous relationships fail and that guys like to sleep around. Its a bit more complicated than that, especially when you consider that so many people are in healthy monogamous relationships. Pair bonding is also a very natural human instinct. As I said, the different urges tend to be somewhat in conflict with each other - the desire to pair bond and build a strong family, the woman’s desire to keep it that way, and the male’s desire to get a little nookie on the side (in general).

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I’m firmly in the monogamy camp. If my wife was cool with it and there were no consequences, would I like to sleep around? Sure. Back in the real world, I’ve never seen an open relationship work out well, and I’ve seen plenty of relationships end due to infidelity. Since I love my wife, love my kids and hate giving money to lawyers, I don’t really have much of a problem over-riding any urges I get to sleep around.

Similarly, while my body often seems to think it needs to gorge on steak/pizza/doughnuts/ice cream, I generally manage to over-ride those urges as well since I quite like being able to see my feet without using a mirror…

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I’m in the monogamy camp as well, but curious…besides the youngsters out sowing their wild oats…has anyone found true joy in either serial monogamy or multiple, on-going sexual relationships? If you are in the “on-going sexual relationships” camp, do you still feel alone? Or do you get psychological fulfillment too? Can you have emotional connection knowing that a partner is seeing others? This is a little different than the “swingers” thread a while back, where a couple had each other but then had multiple partners in certain settings.

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You ought to read the book, which addresses many of these questions. Even if you don’t agree with the authors’ conclusions, you’ll probably find it very thought provoking.

X2. It’s an awesome book and raises great discussion. Wifey and I have had several discussions about our relationship status and what it will take to stay married. Good stuff

It also helps that she listens to dan savage quite a bit

From what I’ve read, it’s sort of natural (which is why so many people are monogamous).

Women tend to naturally be monogamous. One baby every 9 months, and then time spent raising the baby gives no advantage to sleeping around.
Women want their men to be monogamous. Men having babies with other women is not good for the raising of her children.
Men want their women to be monogamous. Women having babies with other men does not help him spread his own genes.
Men struggle to balance between doing what’s best for their children and family, and wanting to sleep around.

But the bolded two aren’t natural - they are societal constructs.
First, living in societies is just as “natural” to human beings as flocking is to birds or swarming is to bees. Second, the statements you bolded aren’t unique to our particular society.

It feels natural to me. I have no serious hankerings to be with any other woman other than my wife.

I’m in the monogamy camp as well, but curious…besides the youngsters out sowing their wild oats…has anyone found true joy in either serial monogamy or multiple, on-going sexual relationships? If you are in the “on-going sexual relationships” camp, do you still feel alone? Or do you get psychological fulfillment too? Can you have emotional connection knowing that a partner is seeing others? This is a little different than the “swingers” thread a while back, where a couple had each other but then had multiple partners in certain settings.

In my younger years I went whole hog on the non-commitment thing. I was perfectly happy.

This June will be my 18th wedding anniversary and I have never cheated. I’m perfectly happy with that as well.

The key is be happy when totally alone.

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But the bolded two aren’t natural - they are societal constructs.

No, they are natural instincts in human women and men. (explained further below)

Look at other mammal, including all other apes. Very few are monogamous. What is “natural” is the biggest, strongest male - i.e. the one with the best DNA - mates with the largest number of women he can protect. His whole life, the meaning of his life, is to protect his family group: his mates and kids. He spends every minute of his adult life in either the pursuit of mates or the protection of those mates, be it from predators or other males.
Females have no advantage to sleep around, because they have already chosen the best mate.
Males have every advantage to having multiple mates, as it spreads their DNA the furthest.
Females take almost every aspect of raising the young, except protection. The feed, they teach, they “raise”. The males have no part, except fending off predators and other males that often kill all the old male’s offspring

One has to understand that each species of animals has their own “system” that successfully spreads their genes. Humans, for example, will behave much differently than pack or herd animals.

There are two things that must occur in order to spread DNA. A male must mate with a female to produce an offspring, and that offspring must be successful. The rearing of offspring is a MUCH more involved and much longer process for humans than in any other animal, which makes the need to pair bond into long term relationships that much more important. It doesn’t imply, necessarily, that there is NO advantage to sleeping around with multiple women, but that there is a balance/struggle between the two different methods.

Its perfectly natural for women to not want their men to sleep around, and likewise its perfectly natural for men to want to sleep around but not let the women find out about it. Its also perfectly natural for the man to focus on one family and try to keep that family in tact.

Sure, each species has a system, family construct, or social organization, but each Family members are similar.
Look at Hominidae (great apes). Mountain Gorillas live in groups of about 9 individuals - 1 male, a few females and their offspring (Comparative socio-ecology of gorillas, Watts 1996). Lowland Gorillas live in similar groups, but with about 10 individuals. Female children leave the group at 9 - which isn’t too different than historic human patterns of 12-15. Male children don’t leave their group till 15! (Intra-specific variation in social organization of gorillas: implications for their social evolution, Yamagiwa 2003)
Chimps are really complex. From Jane Goodall: “There are several mating patterns seen in chimps. Some females in oestrus (period of sexual receptivity) are more attractive than others. A popular female may be accompanied by many or all the adult males of her community, with adolescents and juveniles tagging along. Or, the dominant male of the group may show possessive behaviour toward her, trying to prevent other males from mating with her. A third mating pattern is a consortship, during which a male persuades a female to accompany him to a peripheral part of the community range. If he can keep her there until the time of ovulation, he has a good chance of siring her child. Even low-ranking males can become fathers in this way, if they have the skill to lead a female away during her fertile period of her reproductive cycle.”
Orangutan males live alone 91% of their lives… Females take sole responsibility for raising kids (which leave at 7). Males have large territories (up to 4000 acres). Females have smaller, overlapping territories (up to 1000 acres). The male “owns” everything within his territory - food, water, females. The 9% of time he’s not alone is either spend protecting his territory from other Orangutans or mating with whoever lives in his territory. (Orangutan sexuality in the wild, Galdikas, 1981; Behavior of wild adolescent female orangutans, Galdikas, 1995)

The only other member of Hominidae are humans. 1,000,000 years ago, we would have been very close to one of these other Apes. Naturally, I’d suggest that males should have multiple mates because infant mortality is so high (in Gorillas it’s 38%). However, there’s this pesky civilization and domestication we’ve gone through. We’ve gotten infant mortality down to 0.52% (5.2 per 1000). More than 70x the number of human babies survive vs. Gorillas. People also spend more time at home than we used to - daughters were married off at 12 back in the day, which isn’t too different than Gorilla leaving their groups at 9.
It would be very interesting to have a study about pre-domesticated humans family structure. But, almost all records of that has been lost, and it’s not like there are any humans from 20,000 or 50,000 years ago around, nor time machines.

I still content that monogamy isn’t the natural way for humans to act, as extrapolated from the other members of the Hominidae family. 10,000+ years of domestication has destroyed most these urges though.

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Women tend to naturally be monogamous. One baby every 9 months, and then time spent raising the baby gives no advantage to sleeping around.
Women want their men to be monogamous. Men having babies with other women is not good for the raising of her children.
Men want their women to be monogamous. Women having babies with other men does not help him spread his own genes.
Men struggle to balance between doing what’s best for their children and family, and wanting to sleep around.

The “Natural State” tends to be monogamous for women and tends to be non monogamous for men. As you state, here and in further posts, there really is nothing to be gained by women to have multiple partners. They simply have to have sex with the one male that has the best genes.

Also as you state here and above the two are in somewhat conflict. The women want a monogomous relationship which provides not only the best genes but also the best resources…another reason why “Looks” are not the only consideration for women in a mate.

There’s actually been a few studies that suggest that the female orgasm, unlike the male orgasm, may have developed in order that the female would have sex outside of their window of fertility in order to keep the male sexually satisfied and thus more likely to stay with the single female.

All that being said, I completely agree with your later points about “It’s not that simple” and just because a person is or isn’t monogamous is not proof that the species is or isn’t. In fact I would suggest that there is a high possibility that in our own species we may actually have a set of genes that may dictate this behavior making some in our species “Naturally monomogomous” and others not so much. It’s been a while but I thought I read an article that they isolated a particular set of genes that indicates whether one is more or less sexually aggressive and that the ones with the genes are significantly more likely to cheat. IOW maybe some of us are actually “Naturally monogamous” and some are not.

Personally I’m very similar to you. I actually believe I’m naturally monogamous. I suspect that this could simply mean that had I been born as an ape my genes would not have been passed along as I would never have been an alpha male. However since our society and species took a different turn I’m quite well suited for passing my genes off under a monogomous relationship. To the opposite I suspect that those “Alpha genes” are now at a disadvantage as society is clearly leaning toward monogomy especially where offspring are concerned. You can no longer “Spread your genes” and walk away with your resources :slight_smile:

~Matt

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. Back in the real world, I’ve never seen an open relationship work out well, and I’ve seen plenty of relationships end due to infidelity.

This statement always cracks me up. Tons of open relationships work out everyday. Chances are that you don’t even know a couple has an open relationship because they don’t typically talk about it in public. You only hear about the ones that don’t work because…they don’t work. But with a divorce rate of nearly 50% in the US, most marriages don’t work out either. Nor do most relationships.

An open relationship isn’t about over-riding your urges. Suppressing natural feelings are more dangerous than admitting to them. That leads to resentment, unfulfilled and discontent. Admitting and accepting them doesn’t mean you act on them. But it allows the body and mind to process things in a healthier way than pushing them aside. A little self-reflection can help you identify the source of an urge. That might be something simple that you need to address with your wife. Or it might be a different lifestyle change you need to make.

And it is still possible to love your wife, love your kids and have an healthy life while in an open marriage.

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I still content that monogamy isn’t the natural way for humans to act, as extrapolated from the other members of the Hominidae family. 10,000+ years of domestication has destroyed most these urges though

I respect your opinion that monogamy (or as I put it, monogamous tendencies, but not completely monogamous) isn’t natural, but I’ll contend that its fallacious reasoning to use other primate’s sexual patterns that contradict ours to conclude that our monogamous patterns must therefore be unnatural.

EVERY species has something unique about that species. We don’t assume that the sexual patterns of any other species is unnatural because its different than their close relatives.